tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post2416297618661650816..comments2024-03-29T02:18:35.303-07:00Comments on TAG Blog: Accelerated DisintegrationSteve Huletthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05537689111433326847noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-72163259766398690962007-12-08T15:11:00.000-08:002007-12-08T15:11:00.000-08:00"the person that said unions dont protect bad work..."the person that said unions dont protect bad workers is crazy."<BR/><BR/>Just when we thought the string was dead. <BR/><BR/>Care to explain that generalization a little bit more, or are you satisfied with that moronic comment?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-18603268917331313452007-12-07T20:37:00.000-08:002007-12-07T20:37:00.000-08:00the person that said unions dont protect bad worke...the person that said unions dont protect bad workers is crazy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-81879547367630085232007-12-07T17:26:00.000-08:002007-12-07T17:26:00.000-08:00btw. your hatred of cops is noted.Uh, this is call...<I>btw. your hatred of cops is noted.</I><BR/><BR/>Uh, this is called sarcastic exaggeration.Steve Huletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05537689111433326847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-53653299826113296262007-12-07T12:56:00.000-08:002007-12-07T12:56:00.000-08:00Threat? Where the hell did I make a threat?BTW. I'...Threat? Where the hell did I make a threat?<BR/><BR/>BTW. I'm not debating anything. I think you are getting me confused with one of the other two dozen anonymous people on here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-51607843503598130562007-12-07T11:11:00.000-08:002007-12-07T11:11:00.000-08:00"...meaningless a discussion as most of the dribbl..."...meaningless a discussion as most of the dribble at Animation Nation."<BR/><BR/>Yet here you are.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-90106078684452064232007-12-07T10:34:00.000-08:002007-12-07T10:34:00.000-08:00Congrtualtions! This has almost gotten to be as me...Congrtualtions! This has almost gotten to be as meaningless a discussion as most of the dribble at Animation Nation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-51317846082633580352007-12-07T06:49:00.000-08:002007-12-07T06:49:00.000-08:00Fred lashes out and makes a threat. That's what b...Fred lashes out and makes a threat. That's what big babies do when they lose the debate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-69482831120157505762007-12-06T23:11:00.000-08:002007-12-06T23:11:00.000-08:00maybe because the discussion has gone outside of s...maybe because the discussion has gone outside of strictly the animation union.<BR/><BR/>btw. your hatred of cops is noted.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-15469436816730451432007-12-06T22:48:00.000-08:002007-12-06T22:48:00.000-08:00This doesn't have anything to do with animation un...<I>This doesn't have anything to do with animation unions. However, I have had crappy experiences with unions on many occasions...</I><BR/><BR/>Ah, of <I>course</I>. Explains your invective completely.<BR/><BR/>And I hate all cops forever and always because I had crappy experiences with the police at various points in my life.<BR/><BR/>But back to the subject. If your complaints about the nastiness of unions has nothing to do with animation unions, why are you complaining about unions on "The Animation Guild Blog"?<BR/><BR/>Been kicked off the Teamsters message board?Steve Huletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05537689111433326847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-87243099080980454362007-12-06T13:59:00.000-08:002007-12-06T13:59:00.000-08:00all unions do is insure that bad workers get the s...<I>all unions do is insure that bad workers get the same benefits as good ones.</I><BR/><BR/>Wrong on two counts:<BR/><BR/>1) This <I>would</I> be true if the union prevented the studio from firing bad employees. But it doesn't, so it's not.<BR/><BR/>2) Better workers <I>do</I> get better wages and benefits than bad workers at union studios. Glen Keane isn't making union minimum. There are many animators who make considerably more than union minimum. If they are worth more to the studio, they are paid more. The fact that bad workers cannot make <I>less</I> than union minimum provides a greater incentive to the studio to be wise in its hiring choices.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-74742901212508509332007-12-06T13:35:00.000-08:002007-12-06T13:35:00.000-08:00Of course, if anonymous really believed in the str...Of course, if anonymous really believed in the strength of the individual to hold forth against the forces of organized labor and corporate America, he wouldn't post anonymously, would he?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-25057381593848202342007-12-06T13:29:00.000-08:002007-12-06T13:29:00.000-08:00I find it interesting that anon disapproves of TAG...I find it interesting that anon disapproves of TAG and WGA, but when compelled to come up with an example of why unions are "bad", he resorts to an electrician's union example that, I think we can all agree, is an example of union rules gone goofy. If the example was that he had to wait for a TAG member to sharpen his pencil for him, it'd be a different story...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-54265428511551050422007-12-06T13:24:00.000-08:002007-12-06T13:24:00.000-08:00"Anon., one other small item re union vs. non-unio..."Anon., one other small item re union vs. non-union:<BR/>Nickelodeon Cartoon Studios has just rolled back health and pension benefits and sick days for its non-union staff.<BR/>Union staff? Still have the same health benefits. Same pension benefits. And sick days, because they are tied to the collective bargaining agreement, won't be rolled back until the next contract negotiation in 2009.<BR/>You're welcome."<BR/><BR/>so what your telling me is that there are some employees loosing thier benefits but union employees are keeping thiers. it is reasonable to believe that there are both good and bad workers in both camps. if it werent for unions nickelodeon could choose to devide benefits based on who deserves them individually.<BR/>and i know your going to say that if they had a choice then they wouldnt give out benefits at all but if they tried that no one would work for them or only the lowest level workers would work for them and the lack of quality would show in their product.<BR/>what scares a lot of union shills is that a free market system rewards good workers individually and weeds out bad workers. all unions do is insure that bad workers get the same benefits as good ones.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-41854757514425114912007-12-06T11:51:00.000-08:002007-12-06T11:51:00.000-08:00At this point, can I just observe that the level o...At this point, can I just observe that the level of argument against unions on this thread started with "they're Communist and will cause the ruination of freedom and democracy!"...<BR/><BR/>...and now have been downgraded to "Some dude wanted to plug in my computer!"<BR/><BR/><BR/>Just an observation.<BR/><BR/>Seriously, folks, these just aren't terribly good arguments as to why unions are somehow awful. It really seems that for some folks, this is just an emotion-based issue that doesn't really have much to do with the <I>actual</I> functions of unions and collective bargaining, but much to do with ideological outlooks on unregulated business practices.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-40164657783816659762007-12-06T11:31:00.000-08:002007-12-06T11:31:00.000-08:00This doesn't have anything to do with animation un...This doesn't have anything to do with animation unions. However, I have had crappy experiences with unions on many occasions. One memorable experience was when we had a Siggraph booth and we were not allowed to plug in our own computers. Everything had to be done by a union guy.<BR/><BR/>If we wanted to move a computer and the guy was on lunch. Forget about it, you have to wait till lunch is done and if and when he ever gets back to you.<BR/><BR/>We once moved a lamp and got in deep shit because we plugged and unplugged ourselves. a freaking lamp! <BR/><BR/>These are the type of union things that drive me completely insane.<BR/><BR/>Now, the animation union doesn't really have this problem that im aware of. But, it just puts a bad taste in my mouth for unions period.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-86272584721783189902007-12-06T10:56:00.000-08:002007-12-06T10:56:00.000-08:00Anon., one other small item re union vs. non-union...Anon., one other small item re union vs. non-union:<BR/><BR/>Nickelodeon Cartoon Studios has just rolled back health and pension benefits and sick days for its non-union staff.<BR/><BR/>Union staff? Still have the same health benefits. Same pension benefits. And sick days, because they are tied to the collective bargaining agreement, won't be rolled back until the next contract negotiation in 2009.<BR/><BR/>You're welcome.Steve Huletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05537689111433326847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-28751479082193668262007-12-06T10:50:00.000-08:002007-12-06T10:50:00.000-08:00i see no evidence of unions doing any real good so...<I>i see no evidence of unions doing any real good so thats all the argument i need but everyone is so entrenched in the status quo they wont even consider another viewpoint.</I><BR/><BR/>Logic won't convince you, got it. I'm a lame-brain with lame arguments, double got it.<BR/><BR/>But I'll try again anyway. Unions make up 8% of the private workforce. Their power and influence are probably about what they were in the 1920s. Even so:<BR/><BR/>Across all work classifications nation-wide, the income gap between unionized and non-union workers is 28%.<BR/><BR/>For men the gap is 22%.<BR/><BR/>For women the gap is 34%.<BR/><BR/>http://www.workinglife.org/wiki/index.php?page=Union+vs.+Nonunion%3A+Wages+(2004)Steve Huletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05537689111433326847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-43576735492458110862007-12-06T10:41:00.000-08:002007-12-06T10:41:00.000-08:00I can confirm the light bulb story. Yes, it's tru...I can confirm the light bulb story. Yes, it's true that if the bulb in my desk lamp burns out, someone from the electrician's union is supposed to change it, and they get all persnickety if you just change it yourself. It's stupid, and takes the idea of job classification to absurdity.<BR/><BR/>But I can also confirm that, having worked as an animator at both union and non-union studios, the pay and health benefits are better at the union studio. The working conditions of both were good, but the benefits of a union agreement are noticeable.<BR/><BR/>It's difficult to specifically address your criticism of unions, because your argument centers around the fact that a union agreement is what the majority want, but you have specific individual needs that may not be addressed in a union agreement. Without knowing what those particular needs are, it's hard to say whether you have a point.<BR/><BR/>But I would say that what Steve Hulett mentioned is valid--you can still negotiate individual needs with the studio, regardless of union contract. At the studio I'm at, it's done often enough. I know people who worked out an agreement to work a longer 4-day week, rather than a shorter 5, or other various arrangements. There's still flexibility there, and it really depends on whether the studio wants to negotiate with you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-22939572194656633872007-12-06T08:23:00.000-08:002007-12-06T08:23:00.000-08:00"i'm scolded in a hollywood studio for changing a ..."i'm scolded in a hollywood studio for changing a lightbulb"<BR/><BR/>Let's pretend for a moment this lightbulb story isn't made up. What exactly is this person's job title? Why is this guy going around wanting to change lightbulbs? Was this on a set? If so, and he's not a member of the DP's crew, then he has no business touching any type of light, let alone wanting to change a bulb. Union or non-union, specific jobs have specific duties.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-50644487860081397802007-12-06T07:40:00.000-08:002007-12-06T07:40:00.000-08:00"i can never convince you that life would be bette..."i can never convince you that life would be better without unions"<BR/><BR/>In the world of animation, I continually work both union gigs and non-union gigs. Guess who gives me the better deal? Guess who gives me medical benefits? Guess who protects my interests? Guess who pays me more? The union gigs. Now explain to me how MY life would be better without unions?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-57987629152576465672007-12-06T07:39:00.000-08:002007-12-06T07:39:00.000-08:00"i can never convince you that life would be bette..."i can never convince you that life would be better without unions"<BR/><BR/>In the world of animation, I continually both union gigs and non-union gigs. Guess who gives me the better deal? Guess who gives me medical benefits? Guess who protects my interests? Guess who pays me more? The union gigs. Now explain to me how MY life would be better without unions?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-44581106530379675432007-12-06T06:51:00.000-08:002007-12-06T06:51:00.000-08:00mister hulett's arguments are so lame i'm not even...mister hulett's arguments are so lame i'm not even going to bother with them.<BR/>when someone finally came along and made a halfway decent argument i conceded to the validity of their points. i've already made all of the points i should have to make to support my position and clearly no one on the pro-union side is willing to address them. instead they call me idiot and make fun of my grammar. so whats the point? <BR/>i can never convince you that life would be better without unions because the unions are already in place and they have the advantage of familiarity. and since no one ever dares challange unions no one ever even bothers to seriously consider the alternatives.<BR/>as for me the proof is in the pudding. i see no evidence of unions doing any real good so thats all the argument i need but everyone is so entrenched in the status quo they wont even consider another viewpoint. i might as well try to convince the pope of evolution.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-14220236319641937882007-12-05T22:17:00.000-08:002007-12-05T22:17:00.000-08:00... the trouble with collective bargaining is that...<I>... the trouble with collective bargaining is that it assumes everyone wants the exact same things and unless your devoted to only working in nonunion shops your forced to abide by the decisions of your unions majority ... </I><BR/><BR/>Just so we're on the same page here: <BR/><BR/>EVERY Hollywood labor union negotiates "floors" only; that is, minimums from which individuals can negotiate more money, better perks, higher percentages and often do.<BR/><BR/>Steven Spielberg, DGA member, negotiates Personal Service Contracts that have made him a billionaire.<BR/><BR/>Tom Hanks, a member of SAG, works <I>waay</I> above SAG minimums.<BR/><BR/>Andy Deja, TAG animator, worked far above TAG scale rates for many years.<BR/><BR/>I'm mystified why anyone thinks unions in this town are a one-size-fits-all deal. This would be news to every heavy hitter in the movie industry. They construct a foundation above which talent can build its own custom-built mansion.Steve Huletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05537689111433326847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-56046616795119027382007-12-05T20:44:00.000-08:002007-12-05T20:44:00.000-08:00"communist" is inflammatory and exaggerated?you kn..."communist" is inflammatory and exaggerated?<BR/><BR/>you know what strikes me as exaggerated? - when i'm scolded in a hollywood studio for changing a lightbulb because that a UNION job. or when i'm stopped from executing a job to expedite things because thewre is a fat union stooge on the other side of the workshop who has been guaranteed that job in all circumstances.<BR/><BR/>thats hilarious... and by hilarious i mean sad.<BR/><BR/>the bottom line is that this strike WILL NOT help the WGA or anyone else.<BR/>you can take that to the bank. i'll be right here in the TAG blog front and center laughing my ass off at all the wonderful benefits the strike bestowed upon all of us(sarcasm).<BR/>you'll be proven wrong. then you'll blame it on the corporations when its your union that scheduled a strike at the worst possible time, created a wedge between themselves and coworkers, and came out weaker than before.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-33222515823882966242007-12-05T20:18:00.000-08:002007-12-05T20:18:00.000-08:00How convenient. Instead of actually trying to make...How convenient. Instead of actually trying to make a logical argument - one that doesn't throw around inflammatory verbiage like "communist" - you give yourself an out by claiming that the other guy is closed-minded. It's brilliant, actually; giving yourself permission to bitch about the way things are while simultaneously relieving yourself of any responsibility for trying to bring about change. <BR/><BR/>I don't see you changing your mind any, despite the fact that several valid points have been made in this thread that run counter to your dearly-held beliefs. So now who's closed-minded?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com