tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post5226808475677531926..comments2024-03-26T22:42:06.412-07:00Comments on TAG Blog: Hitting the Gray WallSteve Huletthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05537689111433326847noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-78372094062532908912010-01-20T22:02:54.209-08:002010-01-20T22:02:54.209-08:00Finally a sensible reply. I completely agree with...Finally a sensible reply. I completely agree with that.<br /><br />I think its fair for me to note that I never said there wasnt ANY evidence of ageism. I simply stated it's not the principal reason for older artists getting let go.<br /><br />Feel free to re-read my posts if you want.gnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-83834954944676900202010-01-20T21:38:31.603-08:002010-01-20T21:38:31.603-08:00I've been bopping around the biz for a while, ...I've been bopping around the biz for a while, in and out of studios, talking to hundreds of people. And lemme tell you.<br /><br />* There's politics.<br /><br />* There's cronyism.<br /><br />* There's nepotism.<br /><br />* There's sexism.<br /><br />* There's ageism.<br /><br />All doled out in various amounts, up and down at different times. And there will be people here who deny it, and claim the biz is (mainly) a meritocracy.<br /><br />It's some of that, too. But it's those other things as well. And I've figured out why.<br /><br />It's because damn human beings are involved.Steve Huletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05537689111433326847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-49551956295360169742010-01-20T16:47:08.848-08:002010-01-20T16:47:08.848-08:00g... you rock.g... you rock.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-62518332787077461902010-01-20T16:38:23.146-08:002010-01-20T16:38:23.146-08:00You're getting so frustrated you arent even ab...You're getting so frustrated you arent even able to string a god damn sentence together. This is getting funny.<br /><br />Here. Lets go simple you dumbass, because now you're just starting to piss me off.<br /><br />I guarantee you if I sat you down in front of a TV, put 10 demo reels in, anyone with half a brain could rank them 1-10. It IS a quantifiable thing. And if you have 3 jobs, the top 3 get interviews.<br /><br />I dont care how old, young, black, white, male or female you are, thats how it works. In fact, every reel review Im in, we dont even look at the resume. At ALL. Its either a thumbs up or a thumbs down based on the WORK. <br /><br />If you're AT a company, and they're deciding who gets fired, the same thing happens, except this time things like "is he/she an asshole," "does he/she take criticism well," "does he/she work efficiently" come into play. If you THINK, for ONE SECOND, that "are they are over 40" is anywhere close to the top of that list, you are DELUDING yourself. No one gives a shit how old someone is! Why do you keep hanging on to that!?gnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-12812370963794238952010-01-20T16:12:51.034-08:002010-01-20T16:12:51.034-08:00I have some news for you:
Exactly WHO is "be...I have some news for you:<br /><br />Exactly WHO <i>is</i> "better than average" isn't some quantifiable thing. In fact, it's totally subjective. Which means that in any group of people who, let;s assume, are all at least competent, it's up to whoever is IN CHARGE (and that can be either a group or just one individual/lead/supervisor)whether Artist A is "good", "not as good as he used to be", "fucking great!", "well...he's okay", or-"Well, A isn't cutting it".<br /><br />If ANYONE, including our in-theknow-, oh-so-wise guy up there thinks it's some actual real scale and not personal opinion, you're, well...anyway...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-7825387470498539382010-01-20T13:56:27.681-08:002010-01-20T13:56:27.681-08:00"Unless you are willing to drench yourself in...<i>"Unless you are willing to drench yourself in your work beyond the capacity of the average man, you are just not cut out for positions at the top."</i><br /><br />Thats the trick, isnt it? Being better than average.<br /><br />Age has less to do with it than some of you make it out to be.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-59991514256915656442010-01-20T13:17:51.197-08:002010-01-20T13:17:51.197-08:00"Unless you are willing to drench yourself in..."Unless you are willing to drench yourself in your work beyond the capacity of the average man, you are just not cut out for positions at the top."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-21407379788093485232010-01-20T13:14:23.119-08:002010-01-20T13:14:23.119-08:00Fine. Whatever.
I dont believe people arent hire...Fine. Whatever.<br /><br />I dont believe people arent hired solely because their resumes "go back too far." I just dont. You can believe that all you want, but I dont.<br /><br />In fact, one company I worked for looked at a reel from some 2D animators (I was in the reel review). Their animation from the 90s was brilliant (Lion King stuff if I remember). Then that part of their reel was followed up by their latest CG stuff; stuff that ranged from 4-5 years old to very recent. It was terrible. TERRIBLE. <br /><br />We didnt have time to train them, we needed experienced CG animators RIGHT THEN.<br /><br />So we passed. But we didnt pass because they were old. We passed because they didnt have the skills. Could we have trained them? Maybe if our schedule wasnt hectic, but even then they had been doing CG for 5 years and it wasnt good, so maybe they just couldnt grasp CG.<br /><br />Were they any less talented? No, clearly they could animate. But were they hire-able? Unfortunately no, even if they offered to work for free. A sad reality. And an even sadder reality is, we got LOTS of those reels all the time.<br /><br />So you may say I have a narrow focus and limited to the people I know and the places Ive worked, but Ive worked at a LOT of places and know a LOT of people, and my opinion isnt any less valid than yours. Plus Ive witnessed people getting passed up on first hand 9and the reasons why), so I guess you would find that kind of information valuable. <br /><br />Im sorry you're angry, and even though I have shown you I am not immune to this either, and am sensitive to how difficult this can be, you still insist that Im obstinate and ignorant.<br /><br />Maybe Im just telling the truth, and you're mad at the situation, not me.gnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-26774660687461481632010-01-20T11:45:18.955-08:002010-01-20T11:45:18.955-08:00There is no ageism ever, really.
It's proba...There is no ageism ever, really.<br /><br /> It's probably that the older guys just aren't<br /> -keeping up with their skills, or<br /> -taking their jobs for granted or<br /> -smiling enough in the hallway, or<br /> -good enough all around as the next guy.<br /><br />There is never anything <b>really</b> but an absolute, iron-clad, indisputable fairness in animation employment that applies equally to everyone-all sexes, creeds, colors and ages. How could anyone argue that? <i>Really.</i><br /><br /> So no worries!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-7590973369867904252010-01-20T10:41:25.989-08:002010-01-20T10:41:25.989-08:00g,
First of all, no one said, "stupid."...g,<br /><br />First of all, no one said, "stupid." That is entirely your inference. Obstinate, maybe...<br /><br />Your focus is incredibly narrow, mainly limited to people you know and places you worked. No one would argue against the correlation between job performance and professional success. (Duh!).<br /><br />We are talking here about a more and more widespread bias unjustly limiting access and opportunity. It's not salary. Who would prefer unemployment to a slightly lower wage? Wages can be negotiated. It's about not even being considered for employment because your resume, (I know, rewrite it), goes back too far. <br /><br />Recently, Steve posted statistics demonstrating that the percentage of older animators currently employed is way under the demographic. There isn't just smoke here, there is fire.Enoughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-80964944636811832442010-01-20T09:33:40.259-08:002010-01-20T09:33:40.259-08:00Im not defending management, and if thats what you...Im not defending management, and if thats what you think Im doing, you cant see the forest through the trees. <br /><br />Im defending my fellow artists. By saying that theres all this ageism, you're implying that the only reason me and my co-workers are here is because we're young and stupid and will work for scraps and free overtime. (which is bizarre, because the show Im on has artists and animators anywhere from 20 through retirement age) Besides, I dont think I fall into the young category anymore as it is.<br /><br />The thing is, Ive worked on many many projects, and the only constant is that if you're good, they find a way to keep you because you're valuable. (thats assuming the company is healthy enough to keep a full staff of artists around). So Im only sharing my perspective.<br /><br />I think one of the pitfalls of rallying against ageism is the misconception that "experience trumps all." Yes, older artists bring tons of experience to the table, but that should translate into higher productivity, or mentoring the more junior staff, or just higher quality work in general. If none of those things are happening, and the senior artist is pulling triple the paycheck of a junior artist who is showing tons of talent and is out performing the senior artist, what SHOULD management do? Just keep them around out of pity and bleed money? Ive seen first-hand, senior animators phoning-in their shots, snapping back to the director, and acting with an heir of superiority, even after being warned via written reviews about their performance and behavior.<br /><br />My point is, dont be so quick to attribute ageism as THE problem for the senior artist. In my opinion, its a difficult business and you have to constantly be improving your skills to stay in it. I honestly think each animator or artist is viewed on a case by case basis. If you're senior and you're kicking ass, you stay. If you're senior and youre not, you might be let go. Same goes for young folks too. (I think I said this already)<br /><br />Now, if someone can prove that that XYZ animator got fired because they hit 40, but were kicking ass creatively, then that sucks, and Im sure it happens (one or two come to mind in my experience). But even in the examples Im thinking of, this particular animator was slightly above average, but was probably making close to 250k a year. I felt really bad for him when he was let go (and I was let go too, by the way). Its a tough, TOUGH business to get in and stay in.<br /><br />So what is the solution? I think the only sure-fire thing is just to use your experience to your advantage and do your best to out-perform the majority of the new guys. And trust me, Im keenly aware Im in the same boat.gnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-6120659432113419402010-01-20T01:12:09.709-08:002010-01-20T01:12:09.709-08:00g,
If you actually read what I wrote you would ha...g,<br /><br />If you actually read what I wrote you would have seen that one of the first things I said was "equally valid." <br /><br />I didn't call you "God," I used it as an expression like, "Oh God." <br /><br />If I came off angry, maybe I was reacting to your covert hostility, expressed as invalidation. You also don't know enough about ME to analyze me or diagnose my problems. There are things that make me angry like injustice and unfairness. More accurately, I would describe myself as being outspoken. Admittedly, sometimes it creates problems.<br /><br />"Different 'isms'?" How patronizing is that? We're all talking about one "ism" here,- ageism. You'll find out soon enough.<br /><br />I find it fascinating that you are having such a difficult time accepting that it might be true. Why? Why do you have so much invested in defending management? Why do you take criticism of management so personally?Enoughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-19545860761738872822010-01-20T00:34:30.928-08:002010-01-20T00:34:30.928-08:00Wow. You're really angry. I was just sharing...Wow. You're really angry. I was just sharing honest experiences. You dont think its possible that not everyone has experienced the politics and different "-isms" that you have? Does that make MY opinion any less valid?<br /><br />And how is it arrogant to suggest that the guy who claims he knows of an HR practice to not hire anyone over 40 might possibly be stretching the truth to prove an anonymous point? Thats arrogant? By just suggesting it as a possibility? REALLY?<br /><br />And dont begin to pretend you know me or my history or what Ive been through to get and keep my jobs. Ive been laid off from 2 different jobs. Yeah, its tough, but Ive bounced back. I didnt go crying around on union blogs saying woe is me. I revised my reel, did some extra tests, worked some odd jobs, grew my skills, and boom, have been back for years doing much better. Thats life.<br /><br />You're really mean spirited, and I think you need to check yourself. I'm beginning to think the reason you're unemployed has less to do with ageism, and more to do with your hostile personality. Maybe you can hide it somewhat in real life, but chances are you either dont, or people can see through to the real you.<br /><br />Good luck buddy. Jeez.<br /><br />PS) I always go by "g." I dont know who posts under the name "God" but it isnt me.gnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-77692822429876589772010-01-19T23:26:47.067-08:002010-01-19T23:26:47.067-08:00"Did you ever consider the possibility that t..."Did you ever consider the possibility that the anonymous poster was lying to prove their point?"<br /><br />How arrogant is that? No, he has his observations just as you have yours; equally valid.<br /><br />"The only discrimination I've seen is against people who arent pulling their weight artistically."<br /><br />Yes, you are gainfully employed so the whole world makes sense; employers are universally fair, honest, logical and blameless- practically saints. Employees suffer no consequences that aren't entirely self-inflicted. You are working because you deserve it more than those of us who are not. You're my hero. When I grow up I want to be just like you.<br /><br />Will God and all that is holy please spare us the next patronizing sermon on self-accountability? <br /><br />g,<br /><br />This is a union blog. If the world and employers were as fair and logical as you imply, there would be no unions or need for them.Enoughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-52776714446854384722010-01-19T21:46:10.511-08:002010-01-19T21:46:10.511-08:00WQeren't John and Ron fired awhile back and re...WQeren't John and Ron fired awhile back and recently re-hired?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-30148824888331645242010-01-19T19:23:59.913-08:002010-01-19T19:23:59.913-08:00he worked for the same company for T-H-I-R-T-Y S-I...<b>he worked for the same company for T-H-I-R-T-Y S-I-X Y-E-A-R-S.<br /><br />That happens to <b>no one</b> on the art labor side, and it will not happen to any directors, animators, writers, board artists, set decorators, etc, etc, etc. </b><br /><br />Ron Clements -- 35 years with Disney<br /><br />Ed Gombert (story artist) -- 27 years with Disney (he left for a better gig.)<br /><br />John Musker -- 34 years.<br /><br />There are others.Steve Huletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05537689111433326847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-51415682015388038882010-01-19T14:21:07.517-08:002010-01-19T14:21:07.517-08:00>>>"You know Bill* over at Warners*?...>>>"You know Bill* over at Warners*? He got cut loose from his executive job last Wednesday, after thirty-six years with the studio ..."I've known Bill for decades. He's been a valued employee for as long as I can remember, with lots of skill, all-around savvy and institutional memory crammed into his head. I saw him a week ago and chatted with him briefly; Bill was as enthusiastic and upbeat as ever. He gave no inkling to me that this was coming. (He probably had no inkling.) <br /><br />For whatever bizarre reason, this started as a discussion about a corporate employee who no longer has a chance to be employed at the company he had a thirty-six year run with. It is entirely not about anything union, as union job security is non-existent because everyone gets fired after the show's over. Fired every 9 months or fired every year or every two years. Whatever. You're young - sorry, you're fired. You're old - sorry, you are fired. You are an older guy showing the younger guy the ropes? You are a younger guy showing the older guy the ropes? Hey, guess what - you're both fired. Male, female, black, white, democrat, republican - FIRED. Yes, there are a bunch of -isms running around, but among every union worker scrambling to find work because they are constantly fired, there is hardly time to consider much else except how the f*** can I get my foot in the door for the next gig. Bill's no longer at corporation XYZ? Who the hell is Bill?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-80328452669514554022010-01-19T13:21:48.881-08:002010-01-19T13:21:48.881-08:00Did you ever consider the possibility that the ano...Did you ever consider the possibility that the anonymous poster was lying to prove their point?<br /><br />Im a thirty-something animator at a major studio and have also worked at several different ones. Young enough to not be jaded, but old enough not to be unrealistic and starry-eyed. The only discrimination I've seen is against people who arent pulling their weight artistically. This is caused from several reasons in my observation: Some have families and havent worked enough OT to maintain their shots. Some are young and havent learned to work efficiently and make newbie mistakes. Some struggle with the conversion to 3D from 2D. Some just straight up dont have the eye for it, and have been lucky to not have been fired already.<br /><br />So I think harping about someone getting fired due to an -ism of your choice, while sometimes can seem legit, is probably really caused from several of those reasons. Producers dont like to fire footage-producers just because they have grey hair.<br /><br />So bottom line is, youngins, respect your elders and hedge your bets. Oldin's, dont automatically cry foul and make ageism your scapegoat. Theres plenty of oldin's AND youngin's working, AND plenty out of work (the film Im on has a good mix of both, for sure). But from my experience, if someone is fired and replaced, they are almost always replaced with someone better than they were, young or old.gnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-57019974841335126222010-01-19T12:24:53.051-08:002010-01-19T12:24:53.051-08:00"The thing is, you just cannot prove it-and t..."The thing is, you just cannot prove it-and therefore it sucks, but except for the one in a million chance that there's an actual hidden mike or you can obtain an email trail clearly stating what people only talk about face to face behind closed doors, forget it."<br /><br />Funny you should mention it; there was a similar blog posting on ageism several months ago in which an anonymous poster said he was working at a major studio where an executive explicitly instructed his staff to not hire anyone over 40. <br /><br />For some reason, this poster refused to name names. How anonymous does anonymous have to be to encourage you to feel safe enough to do something as important as that which impacts so many of us. <br /><br />If you are out there, please reconsider. We need a name. We need an example. If you continue to protect this executive it's tantamount to being an accessory. It's as if you were equally guilty of discrimination. Maybe you are no longer even employed there. Please. Give up the name. You will be a hero to the entire work force.Enoughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-90442754121503702292010-01-19T12:11:51.367-08:002010-01-19T12:11:51.367-08:00The comments had nothing to do with the 36 year ex...The comments had nothing to do with the 36 year exec , hell 36 years is an incredible run. I don't feel the slightest bit bad for them at all. In fact, congratulations for the long service. I celebrate their incredible success.<br /><br />This was a discussion of how being a union member no longer means even a chance to be employed. You might consider that for a second and put that in your memory file for the future .<br /><br />It's become about people who say " Hey, it's your own fault, maybe you had a bad attitude" or "there is someone waiting for your job".<br /><br />I've seen them all come and go and I couldn't disagree more. I've seen blatant favoritism, clique mentality ,intentional discrimination, total misrepresentation from the inside so spare me. Had a friend who was slagged behind their backs for things they didn't even do and it sure wasn't an isolated case at all. It was common. If you want an example of how terrified the membership is look at all the anonymous posts. None of you really trust each other and with good reason.<br /><br />We animators love to gossip. It's our thing and we do it so well. We are so full of self moralizing two faced shite. Perhaps it is from wanting to be liked or a personality flaw that we all share but it's there like a giant white head in the middle of our face.<br /><br />So while you are trying to punish the aged unemployed have a good look backward. You can see clearly whats coming because for many of you in the digital age are 5 times as expendable. I do wish you all good luck.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-15048411644678761192010-01-19T11:01:17.232-08:002010-01-19T11:01:17.232-08:00did Bill crash his car, too? bummer.did Bill crash his car, too? bummer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-46823221310161427112010-01-19T09:44:31.614-08:002010-01-19T09:44:31.614-08:00I do have compassion, thanks very much, and I have...I do have compassion, thanks very much, and I have since I witnessed this happen to several older men when I was just starting out. But a pity party about an EXEC(read: top of the pay scale) being let go after 36 years at one place with a mere 5 or so years before they can RETIRE? No.<br /><br />There are more important situations happening every day to everyone in our union. This simply dosn't rank up there. And as has been pointed out a millon times: ageism like sexism is REAL and does exist in our industry-as it does in ALL industries, but ours more than many. <br /><br />The thing is, you just cannot prove it-and therefore it sucks, but except for the one in a million chance that there's an actual hidden mike or you can obtain an email trail clearly stating what people only talk about face to face behind closed doors, forget it. <br /><br />Not saying that's good, it's <i>not</i>, but there are some things that there are laws about in the world that in actual practice can't be really regulated. That's reality. Personally all I can do is do my best to not succumb to ageism myself. And that's it.<br /><br />And by the way, please don't go to the affirmative action argument here-that IS different-didn't use to be, but thankfully is-and that really is the result of a substantial shift in attitudes. Such a shift has also happened for women, but sexism still remains and women still make less for the same exact jobs across the board(god knows they don't make <i>more</i> and probably never will). <br /> But everyone-black, white, male, female-gets <b>older</b> and the bias will <i>always</i> be towards the young save for a few Sumner Redstone types who actually pull all the strings. Nihilistic? Maybe. but seems to the way it really goes in the world.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-4681899631753782402010-01-19T09:24:12.709-08:002010-01-19T09:24:12.709-08:00For all you 20- and 30-somethings: middle age arri...For all you 20- and 30-somethings: middle age arrives sooner than you think. It'll be your turn before you know it. Try to show some compassion; you'll find yourself on the other side soon enough.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-33030525374571050442010-01-19T01:30:54.262-08:002010-01-19T01:30:54.262-08:00"Maybe you should be taking some of those dis..."Maybe you should be taking some of those discounted classes to keep up with the crowd as well as to be inspired." -Yet another Anon<br /><br />When you prove that people who took those classes got hired. Otherwise you are asking people to pay money and time into things that do nothing. Like throwing a drowning man an anchor.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-62128524552088597942010-01-19T01:24:04.240-08:002010-01-19T01:24:04.240-08:00"Rather, someone will always be right behind ..."Rather, someone will always be right behind you waiting for your position at work, and if they hustle better than you, they win, and you lose your job. You didn't cut it."-Yet another Anon<br /><br />Now that made me laugh out loud . <br /><br />"Maybe your attitude sucks. "-Yet another Anon<br /><br />Or perhaps because ****s like you that hire your buddies or noobs because they are cheap ? I'm voting for the latter actually but it's all irrelevant really , the whole "someone right behind you" thing. There is someone right behind everyone , oh except the man/woman at the top and as even Eisner found out he was totally dispensable. Anyone miss his genius? No, I thought not. <br /><br />The growing record of failure of these 2D attempts points to exactly the same thing and that is failure from the top down, not the bottom up. I found the entire premise of the Frog thing boring so I never went but I heard there was some good animation in it. Whoopee , didn't save it so just remember to tell that crew that everyone is waiting for their job. I mean honestly, what kind of moronic throwback makes that kind of a statement?! Immeasurable pettiness !Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com