tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post116076297623804328..comments2024-03-26T22:42:06.412-07:00Comments on TAG Blog: Notes and photos from the "See Jane" PanelSteve Huletthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05537689111433326847noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-1161227512953892452006-10-18T20:11:00.000-07:002006-10-18T20:11:00.000-07:00Chickens and eggs. But since the eggs have no legs...Chickens and eggs. But since the eggs have no legs, the chickens gotta be the ones to move. By understanding and discussing our histories, we can take the responsibilty to change. It's great to have these panels and be opening all sorts of new avenues to travel.<BR/>Go team--Celestehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17911287271685298074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-1160958327782406912006-10-15T17:25:00.000-07:002006-10-15T17:25:00.000-07:00I'm very peeved that I had to miss the panel, but ...I'm very peeved that I had to miss the panel, but I was busy...[i]working![/i]<BR/><BR/>Ah, the irony.<BR/><BR/>Celeste: methinks you're asking a chicken/egg question about women being too "extreme"(for lack of a better word). Was it films that decided that these extreme women were distasteful, or did society? Since women used to be way more repressed in what they were allowed to be job-wise, physically, etc. were films just reflecting that?<BR/><BR/>I myself think that women themselves are the key to turning that around. Support your non-bland sisters and the men will likely follow.RedDiablahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06632173887505994233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-1160957711789250782006-10-15T17:15:00.000-07:002006-10-15T17:15:00.000-07:00The panel talked about the idea of “interesting ch...The panel talked about the idea of “interesting character” as existing in the masculine realm. Jill said something about the problematic development of female character, which can’t be too extreme one way or the other. What is that about? Fat, skinny, goofy, dopey characters are usually male. Did this start in theatre when actors were all male, required to play the females roles, so it logically followed to have fewer female characters? Is this a canon long out-moded, yet one we still follow with blind devotion?Celestehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17911287271685298074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-1160957648783779512006-10-15T17:14:00.000-07:002006-10-15T17:14:00.000-07:00Thank you so much for posting this online, TAG.Goo...Thank you so much for posting this online, TAG.<BR/><BR/>Good stories with good characters will go far, regardless of industry, regardless of intentional steering towards specific audiences.<BR/><BR/>I agree most with what Mr. Seibert said: (quoting from the post) <BR/><I><B>Fred Seibert:</B> If people want to change the world, they have to make their own films. I've been looking at a lot of indie films, over a thousand, and the people that make them have their own points of view. There are people out there doing it.</I><BR/><BR/>I hope that this talk has helped to make people AWARE that there are plenty of female viewers (and participants) in animation. But ultimately, I say this to others (and especially to myself): Don't wait for others to fix what you forsee is an issue. Make your stand and then come up with a solution! As I'll phrase it, for a chuckle, "Put your footage where your mouth is." Cheers!Meaganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00334796605718334718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-1160938627176901102006-10-15T11:57:00.000-07:002006-10-15T11:57:00.000-07:00Steve and Anon, I hope I wasn't coming off as argu...Steve and Anon, I hope I wasn't coming off as argumentative. Steve, I completely agree with most of what you're saying. I think it's important that we look at our assumptions, and question them, and I think this kind of discussion and debate is good for the industry.<BR/><BR/>I've been thinking more about the theory that Geena repeated (and it's a theory that many people hold), that "boys won't watch girl movies..." I do think there's some truth in it, BUT only if the movie is overwhelmingly, categorically a "girl movie." <BR/><BR/>I remember a few years ago Warners thought they had a winner with "The Little Princess." It went unnoticed when they first released it, so as I recall they gave it a re-release, with a bit more marketing. And it sank out of sight again. It seemed like a case that confirmed the above adage.<BR/><BR/>But then, if we look at the most successful animated films of the last 15 years, some of them have prominent girl leads, and clearly a large audience went to see them. Having great, complex female characters clearly doesn't hurt the box office of these films. I think one key may be that there needs to also be characters and elements for boys to relate to. In other words, the best movies usually have great male and female characters.<BR/><BR/>I'll say it again -- it's not a zero-sum game. Creating more female characters, and having them embody a wide variety of characters and types, does NOT have to come at the expense of male characters. And it doesn't come at the expense of good stories, either. In fact, I think it makes for better, more entertaining stories.Kevin Kochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14678528568112279975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-1160926775418750962006-10-15T08:39:00.000-07:002006-10-15T08:39:00.000-07:00Kevin...I didn't mean to open a can of worms with ...Kevin...I didn't mean to open a can of worms with my "girls will watch boys , but boys won't watch girls, etc comment", and I know that BO during the 80's show that it's likely not true as to features - TV is another thing altogether. <BR/>But I think since the success of LionKing if you look at the features that were greenlighted AFTER LK was so successful it seems clear that someone in charge at Disney wanted to catch that same 'male-centric' lightning in a bottle again (ie: Hercules, Tarzan, ENG, Atalantis and Treasure Planet -- Mulan, Pocahontas,HoND and Fabn=ntasia200 were all greenlit before BO for LK I believe). <BR/>It might be that they also were trying to go for a more adult audience and felt the way to do that was to go with male-centric stories (?) Even the Pixar films though skewing usually very young are all dominated by male-centric storylines and not one features a female main character - only as secondary characters.<BR/>I don't think that IF this was a pre-determined plan (not by those pitching ideas but by those greenlighting them) that it was a terribly successful plan - for 2D at least.<BR/>Anyway that's me trying to clarify my thinking...though I'm sure there's plenty wrong with it...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12765213900367650396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-1160905243809174732006-10-15T02:40:00.000-07:002006-10-15T02:40:00.000-07:00I was just commenting on Geena Davis' statement:"M...I was just commenting on Geena Davis' statement:<BR/><BR/>"My theory -- and it's only a theory -- is that 'girls will watch stories about boys but boys won't watch stories about girls' "Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-1160881415352682912006-10-14T20:03:00.000-07:002006-10-14T20:03:00.000-07:00Anon, I really don't see the films with very few m...Anon, I really don't see the films with very few major female roles (the distinctly "boy" movies) doing consistently better than films with prominent female roles. In fact, it sort of seems like the opposite, if we look at domestic big-budget animated productions. At the very least, the track record in US feature animation of the last 20 seems to show that having a female lead doesn't lead to box office disaster, and that films with only male leads doesn't prevent it.<BR/><BR/>I'm sure if films like Iron Giant, Sinbad, Everyone's Hero, Treasure Planet, or Atlantis had female leads, this would be taken as proof that the general audience wants/requires male leads. But they didn't, and no one concluded that those films tanked because the lacked female leads.<BR/><BR/>By the way, just to prevent any silly responses attacking me for seeming to think the gender of the lead characters is an iron-clad correlate with box office success. . . I don't think that at all. The appeal and strength and subsequent success of a feature film are complex, ellusive qualities that can't be boiled down to the percentage of male or female characters. And THAT is my point. A lack of female roles in these films doesn't seem to help these films do any better, and anyone who thinks it does is probably making a mistake.<BR/><BR/>What's interesting in talking to some of the actual creators of some of these films is that NO ONE seems to actually be sitting around saying, "We gotta have male characters, 'cause boys won't watch girl characters." We've heard the one example of Chicken Little, and we've heard (at the panel Thursday night) of a toy company that felt that way, but none of the story artists or directors I've talked to have felt that mandate in their working life. In fact, Dean De Blois mentioned that in the story that was the genesis of Lilo and Stitch, the Lilo character was originally a boy, and as the story was developed he became a she.Kevin Kochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14678528568112279975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-1160858656341591582006-10-14T13:44:00.000-07:002006-10-14T13:44:00.000-07:00Jenny, I didn't mean to imply that only women had ...Jenny, I didn't mean to imply that only women had this balancing act to perform....I think it's a balancing act for anyone who can move up to that level. Kudos to you for deciding to be on the panel despite the your concerns...I hope you don't receive any negativity because of it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12765213900367650396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-1160855132186974412006-10-14T12:45:00.000-07:002006-10-14T12:45:00.000-07:00There is a lot of validity to the premise that gir...There is a lot of validity to the premise that girls will watch films featuring male characters while boys will not embrace female characters.<BR/>Girls mature at a much faster rate than boys do and young boys as a whole are left feeling that girls are "icky" because of this difference in maturity between the two sexes.<BR/><BR/>Unless the animation community finds a way to bolster the growth of young boys to catch up to that of young girls i'm afraid that movies featuring girls in prominent roles will not have as high a return as those with male leads which appeal to both boys and girls equally. As a whole the kids really don't have a choice as to which sex develops faster.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-1160854973226524482006-10-14T12:42:00.000-07:002006-10-14T12:42:00.000-07:00Yes, Incredibles really is a foolproof screenplay ...Yes, Incredibles really is a foolproof screenplay in so many ways...the writer(we all know who that is, of course)is also a lifelong geek of superhero proportions, <I>and</I> a father and a husband...like most other guys in the business. But above all the guy likes to tell a great film story, and Edna is a terrific example of a character that I'd bet 98% of us(I include <B>all</B> of "us", male & female, in story)would have made male without much thought--the "Q" character, more or less. <BR/><BR/>Steve, you point point out some things very perceptively...I don't think of my job as walking a tightrope at work, beyond the same balancing act my male colleagues do also, but then again, as I noted before I did second and third guess myself about even doing the panel(something I'm not hugely proud of admitting, btw, but there it is). I'm not and I can't be a spokesman for "women in animation", all I can do is give my two cents. I'm glad I did it now, very glad.Jenny Lerewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06668171465801333811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-1160851478905291762006-10-14T11:44:00.000-07:002006-10-14T11:44:00.000-07:00> By the way, the other great female Pixar charact...> By the way, the other great female Pixar character is Mrs. Incredible.<BR/><BR/>I would add Edna Mode, Violet and Dory from <I>Finding Nemo</I> to that (admittedly short) list. And yes, those aren't leads, which is exactly the point See Jane is making -- gender parity will be reached when secondary female characters are as interesting as secondary male characters.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-1160846126020290132006-10-14T10:15:00.000-07:002006-10-14T10:15:00.000-07:00Steve, I still don't see much good evidence that A...Steve, I still don't see much good evidence that Americans won't go to animated films if they feature female characters. Miyazaki's films are foreign films, and Americans have never gone to foreign films.<BR/><BR/>Films like Beauty and the Beast, Little Mermaid, Lilo and Stitch, Pocahontas all did just fine at the box office, while "boy character" films from around that time often tanked.<BR/><BR/>I think we see what we expect to see, and it's easy to use just a few pieces of data to convince ourselves that there are economic laws that can't be violated.<BR/><BR/>And, when so many animated characters aren't even human, why does it matter so much? Anyway, I agree with your discussion of how these films are made, and how useful it is to have a variety of perspectives on a story crew.<BR/><BR/>By the way, the other great female Pixar character is Mrs. Incredible.Kevin Kochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14678528568112279975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-1160842936178299312006-10-14T09:22:00.000-07:002006-10-14T09:22:00.000-07:00I've mentioned it before (I think), but I think it...I've mentioned it before (I think), but I think it's worth bringing up again.<BR/>In America 2D animation has always had a problem with gaining an adult audience and being taken seriously (3D seems not to currently have these same problems) so the intent is to try and appeal to the largest possible audience -obviously.<BR/>It seems clear that girls/women will go to an animated film whether it features female or male characters while boys/men will mosy likely ignore such a film if it has mostly female characters(even Miyazaki films - despit everyone's fondness for these films their BO is awful in the US). Is this because of the predominence of PRINCESS films over the years? Regardless of why I think this is the state of things (or has been).<BR/>And since this is really a business it seems to make business sense to try and stack the deck towards the audience that are the hardest to bring into the theaters and to take for granted the audience that will probably go regardless.<BR/>3D has a chance of reversing this - especially Pixar. Other than Dora I can't think of a decent female character in any of their films. Would Nemo have been as big a hit if all the genders had been reversed or at least the father had been a mother? It would be worth discussing.<BR/>DW has had more luck in that direction with the Shrek films though Fiona is just a girlfriend/princess she shares a large amount of story and screentime (though I'm not suggesting it's equal by any means). When i was on S2's story crew - which consisted of almost all men - I know there was a huge problem trying to keep Fiona alive and active in the story and consistent with the first Shrek and not have her as just the princess that needs her man to save her. <BR/>It would have definitely helped to have more women in the storycrew. My feeling is that if women want to see change in the types of films then they need to get into story and start working that way. I suspect that as Directors and Producers women are afraid to rock the boat and push an agenda. Those positions for anyone (women and men) are like walking a tightrope and I can see why this occurs, but in story it's often left to the individual story person to create secondary and background characters - not to mention how a fenmale lead could actually be more involved in the story. <BR/><BR/>that's my 2cents...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12765213900367650396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-1160837726407824342006-10-14T07:55:00.000-07:002006-10-14T07:55:00.000-07:00What's interesting about Miyazaki is that, if you ...What's interesting about Miyazaki is that, if you read his interviews, he sounds far more extreme than anyone at See Jane regarding promoting gender balance and ending gender stereotyping. He has noted that there is precious little entertainment aimed at girls, and that what there is is generally vacuous at best.<BR/><BR/>It's not an accident that virtually all of his lead characters are female, or that his films are specifically aimed at 10-year old girls. What I find ironic is that some of the critics of our panel and of the See Jane effort try to use Miyazaki's films as examples that there really isn't a lack of gender balance. In fact, Miyazaki finds the imbalance so repugnant that he's actually dedicated himself to leading the change.Kevin Kochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14678528568112279975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-1160822723628519602006-10-14T03:45:00.000-07:002006-10-14T03:45:00.000-07:00Great stuff .. there is at least animation legend ...Great stuff .. there is at least animation legend who consistently makes entertaining movies with engaging heroines .. Hayao MiyazakiReel Fanatichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09727636643227938924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22906998.post-1160804548854729092006-10-13T22:42:00.000-07:002006-10-13T22:42:00.000-07:00Thanks for sharing this- I loved reading it!Thanks for sharing this- I loved reading it!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com