The Writers Guild of America has an issue.
The Writers Guild of America, West ... wants to keep the age of its members hush-hush. According to the film-town blog The Wrap, the Guild is pleading with the Internet Movie Database to stop listing birth dates on its widely consulted website. ...
There's no business like show business for sheer relentless pressure always to be securing the next gig. ... Nothing exacerbates age anxiety like a job hunt. It's bad enough to get pink-slipped. But if you're also over 40, you face the prospect of being considered a wheezy geezer ....
Fifteen years ago, at the height of the last animation boom, older artists securing and keeping jobs was not a huge issue. Newbies were flooding into the industry and finding work. Sixty and seventy-year-olds were coming out of retirement to work on the flock of animated features being made by Turner, Warner Bros. and Hanna-Barbera to chase after Disney's string of hand-drawn hits. (I talked to a lot of them.)
Now, I get weekly phone calls from story-boarders, designers and t.v. directors in the middle of their fifth decade who are under or unemployed. Some 0f the joblessness is due to bad timing and bad luck. Some of it happens because of our current cultural and business bias: people 18-34 are the key demographic for movie execs, so it's that age group the moguls are most eager to employ (for they hold the secret for hit t.v. shows and movies, as everyone knows.)
But there's another reason. Unlike the business of fifteen or twenty years ago, the cartoon industry isn't expanding like mad and outgrowing its talent pool, which means a strange kind of age discrimination comes into play. Creators of shows are in their thirties, and reach out to their peers to fill key jobs. They, in turn, reach out to people they know. This leaves the twenty-five and thirty-year veterans at the end of the employment line, because the movers and shakers they relied on for work -- other fifty-somethings -- aren't in the drivers' seats any longer. As a long-time board artist told me last week:
"[A forty-six year old director] called me up last month for a two-week boarding job on a movie he's doing. He just phoned one morning and asked 'Are you available for work?' and I said 'You bet I am.' He's one of the few guys in town who doesn't feel he has to use the younger crowd but goes after people he knows and has worked with before. And that he knows can do the job.
"The two weeks ended up being five weeks. Thank God there's still a few people like him around, or I wouldn't have much work in the biz at all."
The sobering part of this tale is, for animation employees the hiring situation is relatively better than it is for workers on the live-action side. That isn't particularly joyful news, but in this day and age, you take comfort and solace wherever you can find them.
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61 comments:
In the deserts of Robinfloyd, all I see are petrified animation artists........
It's a huge Catch-22 for us older pros. You don't want them to know your age, but you need them to know what's on your resume and the minute they recognize half your resume as stuff they saw when they were in diapers...
I guess you could leave the older stuff off, but then that would you give you a resume similiar to those a lot younger...
Best thing you can do is make friends and help train those that will be eventually taking the better jobs and hiring someday. Unfortunately a lot of them have very short memories...
Or hope one of your peers gets a good job...
Or be willing to go to Australia like Floyd
A member of my family that is a independent film editor with decades of experience { editing and assistant editing } at major studios in LA and abroad has to 'dumb-down' his experience on his resume.
Due to the fact that some editors that are doing the hiring do not want someone positioned below them on the ladder that actually have more experience. They may know more.
Walt Disney was smart enough to surround himself with a crew that was more talented at the art.
He directed.
He was in charge.
But he wasn't afraid of age, experience or talent.
He used all of those for his benefit.
Artist + Age = experience = respect.
Still does.
Don't close the door too quick.
You may be suprised.
Outside of a hypothetical script that depends intensely on pop culture/techno/tweeny references, age discrimination makes no sense whatsoever.
When it comes to art and animation, it has absolutely no justification. Still, some of our studios behave as if children can intuitively tell the age of the hand that held the pencil/stylus that drew the pictures he is watching which are therefor now fatally contaminated with unhipness.
Picture Song of the South, the Sequel, in which the boy turns to Uncle Remus and says, "You can't tell me a story, you're too old. Get lost!" Needless to say, it would be a very short film.
What to do about it, however, is a difficult question. Part of it, as Steve says is that there is not enough work to go around, so employers can apply discriminatory and picayune standards and practices like extended apprenticeships and testing that wouldn't exist if there were more openings.
Outside of that, what? Incentives?
I'm an old guy (40+) that had been doing this stuff since the eighties. Work has slowed tremendously. It is a combination of many factors. But, a part of that seems to be ageism. Even though no one will come out and say it.
Financially I'm fine. I make twice what I ever did in animation. So it doesn't really matter to me in the long run. But I know it matters to my friends. I feel for them and wish the shit would stop. The younger generation is often afraid to bring in someone older. They'd hate to have someone that may be better than them. (not always the case, but often is)
But when I do the occasional quickie animation job and have to deal with all the producer B.S. and long hours.. Well, I quickly look forward to the project ending.
What is it that you are doing now? "Twice as much" sounds good.
What should studios do with 40-plus-ers who have experience but still arent very good?
Sometimes Artist + Age = still bad.
Honest question.
Interesting since the most popular animated films are being executive produced by people well into their fifth decade.
What should studios do with 40-plus-ers who have experience but still arent very good?
Sometimes Artist + Age = still bad.
Yes, I know a few of those, and it's a tangled-up problem, isn't it?
Age, from my observation, is seldom the sole reason someone isn't hired in the animation biz. But it's often part of the reason.
There's really no way to quantify it with precision. Further, I know artists who lose several steps as they get older and refuse to reocgnize the fact. (These are usually folks in their seventies and older, but sometimes the individuals are younger.)
Sometimes Artist + Age = Wise enough to know that there's a great deal more important things in life than working on another dopey animated project.
You mean the mortgage can be paid with laughter and butterflies...?
We're listening...
You've got to be flexible and adaptable in order to survive. And, you've also gotta have the stamina to keep up. I moved up to Pixar before it became fashionable, and I've worked live-action shoots with kids half my age.
It sure ain't easy, but you do whatever is necessary.
Although younger (but still old) than Floyd, I can echo what he says. As an old school cg vet, I'm having to work harder to keep up with these new kids. Stamina, that's all they got on you. I'm holding my own, but it's tiring. I find that older folks just fall out of step. You can become outdated really fast in cg.
In the old days, the old farts didn't have to keep up because they got promoted to a corner office upstairs. Clearly, those days are over.
Today, if you're not part of that "special group" (and you know what group I mean) you're done. It's a shame really, because there are a lot of talented "oldsters" out there.
"Familyism" is a problem too. As soon as they realise you have kiddies, then they are more apprehensive about hiring. They know it's going to be harder to convince a parent to work unpaid overtime than a single person, especially if they're younger.
As a 40 something year old - I see what's going on and have decided to create my own studio and my own opportunities, where folks with talent and experience will be valued and not cast aside for the new flavors of the week...
I need a family....can I be a part of yours? I like no-nonsense employers and to know what is going on. Makes me a better employee......
"Sometimes Artist + Age = still bad."
It sounds like somebody is trying to rationalize and justify ageism. It's a non-issue. Bad is bad, no matter what age, and "bad" means unemployed.
Fighting ageism doesn't mean guaranteeing jobs for people who don't deserve it. No jobs in this field are guaranteed. By the time an individual's job performance becomes the issue, the question of discrimination has become moot.
Age discrimination is about being denied ACCESS to work because of age. No one is asking for special deference because of age, just a level playing field.
The fact that that concern is a problem for you reveals something about the psychology of age discrimination and the rational behind it.
It also indicates that you're part of the problem.
Im not sure I follow what youre saying. Can you give us an example of what you mean by denying access to a job because of age?
I dont have a problem with my coworkers being 40+. But I do have a problem with my coworkers doing poor work and still being kept for years BECAUSE of their seniority...
11:40. One thing I've figured out is to trust the choices the management has made. There have been some older workers who a lot of people cite to this day that they did poor work. One of them did some work for me and returned it with such respect, that I honestly couldnt find anything wrong with the work. And not because he treated me with such respect, but I was really blown away by both the respect and the quality of the work which came back. This person was again cited just the day before yesterday as what you would call a poor one that nobody can understand why they are kept on. And this is over ten years later that he is retired (with most of the rest of us). And inside the back of my mind is "well, he did just fine by me...". Likewise, if a management person were to be critical of the quality of my work, I'd highly find it unlikely to be a valid fact if the very work has been put in print on film and making money. The statement is more ridiculous than actual fact. Nobody would let me work on a project if I was going to "hurt" it. Therefore, if someone decides if I am going to work on a project, it's a good choice by them, the same as if they choose you or someone you disagree with. Nobody is gonna get on a project if their work is sub-par and cant be fixed or followed up with minimal trouble. There are reasons they are there. The reasons may likely not be yours to understand, or ever your business. Let them be older and make their time easy as you can. They'll appreciate it, and you more so than you think. Perhaps even enough to treat you with a level of respect that would make your socks roll up and down. Till then, never mind what they are doing there. This is the real world.
"Geezer" and Anon Monday 6/28/12:54, both of you have made my day. And I'm not an oldster-yet-I just appreciate the remarks as intelligent and important.
I don't know who you are, but I'm really happy that we work in the same union & business.
Thanks for posting your thoughts.
No problem...glad to be in your company. Like I said at the start:
In the deserts of Robinfloyd, all I see are petrified animation artists........
First, thank you,10:37. I try to make sense even though I don't always succeed.
"Can you give us an example of what you mean by denying access to a job because of age?"
Are you kidding? Do you mean, point to the man who isn't there? These are the people you don't see because something in their resume or their samples predates the recruiters' or show runner's arbitrary parameters, or have the temerity to show up at an interview with too many gray hairs on their heads or beards or wrinkles under their eyes.
Perhaps you should give us an example of someone who got hired in spite of doing "poor" work and couldn't be fired because of "seniority" (not in our union contract as far as I know). You must have someone in mind or you wouldn't have cited him twice.
I can name a dozen animators where I work who are terrible, but are senior level so they stay show to show.
Yes! Please submit names.
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By the way, how would they see YOU, especially if HR insisted they say something desparaging about you in order to keep you in your place?
Not very fair, is it?
But then, nothing is fair.
"I can name a dozen animators where I work who are terrible, but are senior level so they stay show to show."
I'm beginning to smell a rat, here. You're arrogance is starting to grate. Who died and left you the ultimate judge of animation talent? What kind of position are you in that affords you a thorough familiarity with everyone else's work? Which studio uses domestic animators on "shows?"
I think you are a phony, a troll, just a provocateur. You will get no more feeding from this poster.
LMAO at this studio that supposedly employs DOZENS of old, terrible animators without a care in the world, ignoring much worthier artists like this guy, simply because they are "senior level".
Wait a minute...there are places where features are called "shows"...where hiring can be done show to show...where there've been the same animators employed for DECADES:
must be Pixar!
Call me a troll, demonize me, do what you will.
But if you think for one second that every person in feature film is there because they deserve it, you have to ask yourself, who is the naive one?
Yes, I think ageism exists in some form, but on the other hand, senior level artists at major feature film studios often have their jobs because they got in early, not because they are better than fresh kids coming out of school. That's all Im saying and you guys are just wanting to fight, and are being sarcastic and holier than thou.
Excuse me for asking a simple question based on real studio experience. I work with plenty of 40-60 year olds and they're awesome. But Im beginning to suspect that the people here complaining of ageism are just bitter and angry because they've been laid off.
"Often?" Impossible.
Now, not only are you an expert on the talent in your studio, but every other one as well.
I guess when you are young and all full of yourself, the concept of seniority may seem unfair and illogical. Consider this; you won't be young and "fresh" forever. Picture yourself 10 or twenty years from now, with a wife, children, possibly in college, and a mortgage. Suddenly, in spite of all of your skills, achievements, knowledge and experience, you can't find a job, just when you need it the most. What are you going to say? "That young guy is really good, maybe I'm supposed to be unemployed." Somehow, I don't think so.
Generally, budgets and schedules are so tight in this business that no one who can't get the job done survives for too long. There's nothing wrong with confidence. Without it, we can't even apply for work, but it doesn't have to manifest itself as snark.
"Bitter and angry?" Never! Whenever I get laid off I open up a bottle of Champagne, of course!
You assume Im young. Thats funny.
I DO have a wife, children and a mortgage. Theres no need to demonize me.
Im simply asking what SHOULD studios do with all artists (old or young) when they arent pulling their weight? Can you really chalk up all layoffs of older employees as ageism.
Thats it, thats my question which everyone has failed to answer, but has found it much more fun to simply attack me.
Well which is it--are there dozens of older animators who aren't pulling their weight who should be let go at your studio but are kept on, thus proving reverse discrimination and unfair bias TOWARDS "older" guys?
-OR-
Are there "all the layoffs" of older guys happening at(apparently) your studio simply because these "older employees" are not pulling their weight?
You're saying two completely contradictory things here, but the one clear bias expressed is that YOU have a distinct chip on your shoulder/erroneous belief that far from any "ageism" older employees by & large are unfairly being kept on for purely cronyism reasons.
Btw, no one here is "demonizing" you. That's a wee bit melodramatic. If anything you keep hoisting your petard up there all by yourself.
Ive worked at more than one studio. Ive seen both.
My point is, Ive sen studios lay off older employees, and older employees scream ageism. Then I see other studios keep older employees who arent pulling their weight, and the younger guys shout ageism.
So that makes me question whether or not age-ism is legit.
3:30. It just seems that he doesn't like anyone who isn't just like him.
He claims he is pulling his weight. He is married, has procreated and has a burgeoning mortagage. He sees others who aren't doing as much as him, doing the same level of quality as him, and who are obviously connected in ways he is not, as a threat to his menial existance.
I know of no place today that would keep a stable of under-performing animation artists. Perhaps the show is cheesy to begin with. I've worked on plenty of projects that I thought were bad, but still got paid. Complete with benefits. Regardless of who you are looking at and thinking things 'other' than what mangement wants you to be concentrating on, take stock of who YOU are, where you are at, and long-term, where you want to go. Not what you are going to do with your wife, procreations and lapsing mortage next season when you are laid off for staring so hard at the older-underperformers.
blah blah blah to all of you
"So that makes me question whether or not age-ism is legit."
Finally, the point! So, based on your personal experience, ageism is a myth, nothing more than an urban legend. It's all fair equal out there. Right.
"blah blah blah to all of you"
(I guess the assholes felt unrepresented, here). If you don't like the discussion, go elsewhere and crap there.
I think a lot of people have a lot of different excuses to cover up for their inadequacies, and ageism is one of them.
Not to say it doesnt exist in some form, but I'd be willing to be 75% of the people who cry ageism were laid off (or not hired) for a different reason than their age.
meant to say "willing to bet"
75%? Are you sure it isn't 74.5%? or 82.3%? Did you actually take a survey or are you just blowing it out of your ass? I still don't get your point. No one is ever treated unfairly? You contradict that by claiming that senior artists are benefiting unfairly because of their age and time in the business. Is it that People should accept their shortcomings and stop blaming others for their circumstances? Then what, blow their brains out?
Sorry to break it to you, but I have heard several disturbing quotes attributed to producers and other show runners specifically ordering their subordinates not to hire anyone past a certain age, and quite a few less formal remarks in a similar context.
There may not be a Santa Claus, but there certainly is age discrimination in our business.
Yes, and there are also all those annoying whiney artists who are looking for a convenient excuse to deny and cover up their obvious pitiful inadequacies. (I think the latest gallup pole fixed the number at 36.984%).
If you read back through this conversation, I think you'll find that you come off as angry, bitter, sarcastic and not objective. Its hard to take your opinion seriously when you're that emotional.
Of course I dont know exact numbers, Im just making an estimate, just like you dont know exact quotes from producers, just rumors of quotes.
Bottom line? If you do good work, you'll stay, and sometimes even if you do bad work you'll stay. (and yes, sometimes even if you do good work, you'll still get laid off...and perhaps someone less deserving will keep their spot. See how both can be true?) But I think the tendencies lean toward it being more merit based, and less age based. I would say 75% of the time, but you get angry when I do that.
Maybe your impression of how I'm "coming off" is no more than my reaction to your invalidating attitude.
Some of the quotes I referred to are anecdotal in that they weren't made directly to me, but they are hardly "rumors." They are, unfortunately, very real. The very use of that word is an unnecessary invalidation. Why does making my point contradict yours?
Yes, on the job, the factors of performance and attitude eclipse age. We agree on that. If you read back in the conversation you'll see that my principle concern was access to work, not age based workplace discrimination. Like all discrimination, ageism disappears once personal and professional relationships are established. What you describe sounds more like cronyism.
So, I'll ask you straight ahead, where does the number come from? How did you arrive at 75%?
I guess because I've been in this industry long enough to see both sides. Here are my observations in no particular order:
-Ive seen young artists outshine their superiors and still get laid off (and their superiors remain). Thats reverse age-ism, if by age-ism we mean discriminatory against older artists. Or perhaps it IS cronyism. Either way it isnt merit based.
-Ive seen older artists get passed over in reel reviews, not because of their age, but because they dont have any CG experience. But for every ONE of them, there easily fifty young artists who can do CG but have no artistic skill whatsoever and are also passed over.
-Ive seen artists (any age) remain at studios for film after film not knowing their work isnt that strong, until finally they're let go. They are dumbfounded, understandably, and begin to try and justify why they were laid off by citing age discrimination ("I was laid off because i have a family and didnt work enough overtime") or some other excuse. When the simple fact is, if you arent constantly improving, you risk being let go. Its harsh, and its hard, but it isnt discrimination.
-Ive never heard of a producer or supervising animator or HR not consider an applicant because of age. If they have the goods, they get the interview, and studios ARE willing to pay for real, experienced artists.
So, I guess when I read posts about "ageism" it feels more like a rallying cry for perpetuating the excuse mentality of this business, when in reality every case is specific. And for the most part, good artists get and keep jobs. I guess thats where I get my 75% estimate.
Anon 1;17: you start out claiming a balanced view("I've been in this industry long enough to see both sides") and then clearly go on to be an apologist for every layoff AND nonhire being done for perfectly sound reasons, no bias involved-or if there IS bias, that it's one of a subpar person being kept on too long rather than anything else.
I haven't been a victim of it to my knowledge and don't qualify for it-yet-but all I have to say is: ageism EXISTS. In our industry. It's real. Yes, it definitely, UNJUSTLY means perfectly qualified people have not gotten work they could have performed better as well or perhaps than younger people.
How pervasive it is is another thing, but that sure as hell happens. It's total fantasy that all hirings and layoffs are based only on merit. That's just a part of the reasons in most cases, as has been said here on the TAG blog dozens of times.
That's just life, and life and careers often aren't fair and all that-but it is reality.
But if it makes you feel better to assert otherwise as you keep on doing, hooray for you. If you're happy and feel justified labeling discussions of other people's experiences as "whining", sour grapes, delusional etc because it isn't YOUR personal experience and YOU haven't seen it and therefore don't believe it can happen in your universe, dandy. Just realize you're a)naive and b)a bit of a jerk.
1:37...Actually, I think he just a puppeteer. Lacks experience gained from working in the real cartoon industry.
"-Ive never heard of a producer or supervising animator or HR not consider an applicant because of age. If they have the goods, they get the interview, and studios ARE willing to pay for real, experienced artists."
Well you haven't but I have. On one occasion I was in portfolio review where more than a couple of applicants were up for tests, until the production manager pointed out that one was at least 50 years old, and the show runner rolled his eyes and said not to bother with him.
Another occassion a test came in and the show runner was thrilled at how great it was, only to discard it after he reread the lengthy resume of the applicant and went with the newbie who he was only moderately impressed with.
And finally when going through portfolios, I was told to check and see if any of the applicants were "heavily experienced" and to put those in the return to sender pile, site unseen.
I've worked enough to see how most fellow staffers act around anyone older than 45 and what they say behind their back as they giggle with their "hip" buddies about how crazy the old fossil is...
Sounds made up. Sorry. *shrug*
"Sounds made up. Sorry. *shrug*"
As made up as your mythical 75% number... *double shrug*
I never said 75% was accurate. I said it was my estimation. Straw man argument you got there...
No you just called me a liar after I relayed anecdotes based on personal obersvation working as a PA at a variety of studios. But we're supposed to believe your guesstimation on what you claim you observe? Maybe you need to look up straw man and hypocrite while you are at it.
You're a PA? That explains why you dont know what you're talking about
Maybe in your world - but at least I don't deny that there is a problem with ageism. But then again you probably think that there is no more racism now that Obama is president.
And BTW I WAS a PA when these events happen, I'm now a board artist, so I know enough to keep me employed.
Mr. Former PA; now that you have confirmed our worst suspicions, would you PLEASE contact the union and name names?
One thing you can count on; if there are no consequences, this behavior will certainly get worse and worse. The age bar will get lower and lower.
The rest of you, before you scoff, there are no Merlins out there. Not a single one of you is getting younger. You will be dealing with this eventually; when you least expect it and when you can least afford it.
@ Geezer - One of the incidents I mentioned it to a rep, and he said unless I had more proof, it would be my word as a PA vs that of a showrunner, and considering the attitude like our Mr. 75%er has towards PAs, you can only imagine that from a show runner, so I decided not to commit career suicide over someone I don't know.
I respected and learned alot from the season pros, which helped me finally break through as a board artist. Now that I've been on both sides of the fence, I learn to treat everyone as part of the team, considering you never know who will rise up and be your peer or boss.
You may think I have an "attitude" toward PA's, but when I say "you dont know what you're talking about" I mean that LITERALLY. It wasnt a stab.
Artist/Animator supervisors DONT ALWAYS share the "why's" and the "why nots" to PA's regarding hiring practices. You are just as likely to hear rumors, excuses, or mis-truths as anyone.
And I'm saying this as someone who HAS had that responsibility to consider applicants.
Look, I know its hard to infer tone of an anonymous commenter on a blog, but if you knew me you'd know Im not a jerk or unfair or biased or clueless. Im simply pointing out, that in my experience, the individual who cries ageism is ALMOST always terminated (or not hired) because of their SKILLS, not their age. Period.
"Artist/Animator supervisors DONT ALWAYS share the "why's" and the "why nots" to PA's regarding hiring practices. You are just as likely to hear rumors, excuses, or mis-truths as anyone."
Again your speaking on speculation, I was there when they said it, it was no rumor and it was clear what was going on. It was their lesson to me, "Not to hire anyone who could be your boss, because they may make you look bad." (paraphrasing)
These 30 somethings were afraid of being a boss to someone older than them.
Your opinion on why folks aren't hired or fired isn't fact - it's just an opinion. I'm not offering an opinion on what some may "cry" now, I was just citing real examples of ageism as some asked.
So take or leave it, you've already made up your mind on how everything works.
And so have you.
The facts have been presented to you, 75%, and still you deny them in favor of your opinion and your anecdotal personal experiences. At this point, you are just being stubborn.
To the ex PA; I am shocked and disappointed that the rep didn't act on your information. What's up with that Steve H.?
I think its safe to say none of us can claim any of this dribble is "fact"
Man, you're frustrating! If a real person said something, and a real person heard it, it's fact. Stop trying to manufacture equanimity. Be man enough to admit you're wrong.
And the word is "drivel."
I saw the Stay Puft marshmallow man destroy Hong Kong yesterday. On fire.
Fact.
I'm in my fifties, and was an early adopter of CG animation in the early nineties. I'm also probably at my peak, yet none of the "big" studios will hire me now, but many boutique studios appreciate my animation skills and experience.
It's all just human nature. People want to work with their peers, and when you are old enough to be the father of the supervisor who interviews you, well you can pretty much guess how that will go. Plus people are scared for their job and don't want to hire someone who could potentially outshine them. The funny thing is that at this point in my career taking on a supervisor role is the last thing I want. Not worth the aggravation, I just want to animate. Too bad because I can be a huge asset to any company that hires me.
Age discrimination in animation is very real, and seemingly an unwritten mandate at the bigger studios. Disney, Dreamworks, Sony, Rhythm and Hues, Pixar, etc are guilty bigtime! It's your loss fools! Many smaller companies are guilty as well, but I thank all the ones that hire the best talent available regardless of age.
---Anonymous "Senior" Animator
There really is some hot air here...and I am not speaking about the Senior Animator. Incredible patience you have to put w/ that conversation!
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